Thanks Angie for all of your research and trials and willingness to share…
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You know me! Mad scientist investigates all possibilities!
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Yes, and that “mad scientist” has been a real GOD send for so many of us over the years. Thanks Angie for all the trouble you go to just to help the rest of us!!
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I had the Liquithin cracking in the creases and turning white and finally after several bakes at 270 for 11 minutes, the white creasing cracks went away. I did put a little odorless thinner in them every time after causing the white cracking
I think the Xodus oil helps liquithin cure better. i’m mostly mixing the two
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Plasticizer. Is this why the varnish makes my baby feel coated in rubber? I gave the varnish a try and I absolutely hate the rubbery feel of it. I will not be trying it out again.
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I’m guessing the same issues.
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This is interesting to know. I might try mixing the Liquithin with the Xodus thinning then on some test parts and see if it does better. So far I have only tested the Liquithin by itself mixed in paints.
As for baking times, I bake all my new products 265 degrees for 9 mins. I have not had any issues with Xodus products not being cured at that temp/time. My only exceptions have been old formula Genesis Varnishes always required baking 2 or 3 times twice or baking longer like 12 mins. With the original formula of Xodus varnishes the satin required the same extra baking if you put it on thickly over hair to make hair lines.
It would seem from reading on the IRHSP group that Esther is now telling people who have any issue to bake their pieces longer, as much as 15 minutes. I also had immediately noticed that the new paints/varnishes here on BB site are saying the same. This done repeatedly is not good for the vinyl IMO. Some of these vinyls start out shiny and have a tendency to go more shiny with baking. I have found that to be very true of every single Charlie Auer baby I have made and just at normal times of 8-9 mins. I am on #4. Thankfully, I have found using some Xodus thinning oil over the shiny parts and baking it alone will knock that back down some so you can keep painting and not have it as a visual distraction.
I just do not think any product that requires each layer to be baked up to 15 minutes for every layer to get it cure is a superior product. I just think it does something to the vinyl integrity. I along with many others have always tried to get two layers of mottling or a layer of undertones and/or creases and mottling on with Genesis and then bake to avoid having the vinyl be subjected to so much heat. With these new products, that is not feasible because they are sticky until cured and will move around on you and muddy up. They have to be baked each layer at a time.
Yep! That is exactly why you feel that. If you research the defininition of Plasticizer it is “a substance (typically a solvent) added to a synthetic resin to produce or promote plasticity and flexibility and to reduce brittleness.” If you research Plastisol it is “colloidal dispension of small polymer particles, usually polyvinyl chloride (PVC), in a liquid plasticizer.” If if look into this further you will find as I have that once cured it has a flexible, rubbery consistency. So there ya go! Believe me, I have sat for hours on the internet reading up on all this to figure out what it might be, how it works and what/if there are any drawbacks. I have also found that when dealing with Plastisol any cracking or crumbling indicates undercure. At the same time, over curing can also make it brittle. So once again, I would think that would crack or craze. Lastly, “Plastisol can shrink slightly when it’s formed, usually around 2%. This is because the vinyl compound shrinks more when it cools than the mold material. Softer plastisols tend to shrink more.” Oh, because it is a thermoplastic it can remelt if it gets too hot.
So in my mind that would explain the recommendation of higher temperatures with these paints and also explains why so many have issues like we are seeing here. While I do not have proof that Plastisol is the plasticizer in the new heat set paints, I do find that it is what is used in paints for screen printing t-shirts.
So what is my point in all my pontificating? My point is that if one is going to use these types of paints, it is probably best to heat them closer to 15 minutes. If that is what you feel comfortable doing, then you will likely see better results and be happy with them. If you are like me, and are wary of so much heat setting, then I say to use alternatives.
It is also interesting that these companies have for some time now had disclaimers such as “If you decide to heat your vinyl you must do so at YOUR OWN RISK. We do not recommend this and we will NOT take back or replace any vinyl parts that have become defective due to exposure to heat in an oven. Any bubbles or melting which can be the outcome if too much heat is applied is not the fault of the dealer or the manufacturer. No exchanges or refunds will be given for this reason”,
yet now they are selling paints that require heat setting for up to 15 minutes!
What alternatives? I once again would redirect you to a few things:
-I have been happy with all the Xodus mediums. They are in the process of being reformulated and I assure you the next batch coming is SUPERB!
-Xodus does have a new line of paints coming and I do know that Brenda is working diligently to source the best possible pigments for these that will be closest to Genesis and have the same longevity. So it is not something they are just putting on the shelf quickly which is why it has been taking a while to get to us.
-If you can get your hands on any old formula Genesis paints I recommend you do.
-If you can get your hands on any new formula Genesis paints you can mix the Xodus thinning oil in with them and it will solve all the stringy and curing issues. **MacP has had all their Genesis paints on sale so you can get them there.
-The Winton oils are a compatible product that I have mixed in with my Genesis paints along with the Xodus thinning oil and painted with. Once you add a heat set agent to the Winton oils, they become a heat set paint that can be force cured. They are working lovely for many. Both Jessica Collier and @Emma Emily Elliott have info on this and Emily teaches tutorials on how to paint with them. I would much rather go this route if I had no Genesis or could not source any.
Lastly, I wanted to clear up some misinformation out there about the Xodus thinning oil. The reason that product was labeled as an “oil” is because it acts like an oil in the way it flows and performs in conjunction with the paints. Very much the same way the oily substance in original Genesis did. However, it is NOT a traditional oil. It is actually a synthetic heat curing product. Once it is heat cured, it is totally cured and does not retain any of the same properties as traditional oils such as linseed, poppy, sunflower, safflower, soya bean and walnut oils. This explains why Aly and myself have both been able to successfully mix it in with these other brands of products. In my initial testing of the IRHSP and the BCPaints I found it solve the grainy separating issues of both paints on the pallet when used in conjunction with just the paints and some solvent. Yet we are told that traditional oils are not to be used with the IRHSP. This product (Xodus) is not a traditional oil, which is why it works.
I know I have “preached” you all a long diatribe here about all this. Product research is definitely something I am passionate about. I have nothing against any of the newer brands on the market but I also think it is important that before people go sinking lots of money into a new system they be informed of all the pros and cons. Nothing is a perfect fit for every single person. As always, I will forever tell anyone that I do not promote individuals or companies. I promote what I myself have tested and found to be superior for me. That often means I will use a mix of brands while other times it might be an entire brand line. When the new Xodus paints come out, I will be testing those extensively in the same way I do everything else. This is how I roll baby!
Happy Painting luvs!
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I am hoping for the xodus varnish to come out better. I tried it and disliked it and planned on not using it. It’s terrible and puts a layer of sand all over my baby. If I didn’t hear they were redoing it I wouldn’t be buying anymore. I really hope the new stuff is good because what I have so far is not.
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I feel very ignorant on this subject because when I paint air dry I use paint, water, and Golden fluid medium. That’s it. When doing stronger colors or working slowly I do have some slow dry l add but it’s not often or even with every doll.
Why do you guys need so many additives with heat set? From what I understand you guys can even just leave your paint and come back to it the next day.
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the Liquithin is the thinning medium Esther now says to use with her line of paints. I was trying it out because you know I try most everything.
When I paint I use Genesis, Citrus solvent to thin. When painting hair, I also add some of the Xodus thinning oil to make it have more flow. If I have some Genesis paint that seems dry in the pot, I add Xodus thinning oil to that to make it fresh again. The other mediums are for finishes like satin, matte, thick etc.
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Okay that makes more sense to me now!
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I use Genesis and odourless thinner to paint that’s it. I’m trying to find a new varnish because I’m going to eventually run out of genesis. I want to get trying things before I actually need them otherwise that would be a big Jackpot. If they didn’t quit making Genesis no one would need any of this.
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Thank you for this post and the extensive research. It makes us wonder why the Gemini line needs to be in the oven for 10-15 min to cure. I am gong to ask our supplier what the reason is and if it will make sense to shorten the time.
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This is my way - clean and simple.
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This is the very reason I stopped using Liquithin and the paints, everytime I finished a kit and went to put eyes in, this happened. All that work gone. On top of other issues, I just put every bit of it away and am back to straight Genesis and Xodus here and there when I need it.
I will say, I had one successful doll, I baked the kit 4 x 11 minutes for the Matte and it worked.
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I feel like it just helps you get more coverage without adding more pigment. Where you’d normally need about ten layers to get fingertips to a nice pale pink, you’d only need a few if liquithin is mixed in. The paint just stays and kind of self levels.
I’m only using for hair, creases, and hands and feet. But I do mix Xodus oil into it in most cases (besides hair and my mixtures are way more than half paint.) I’ve had great results that cure well and matte so I want to utilize this product in the ways that I can.
My results look almost exactly the same with or without it, but it does free up my time to really pack in details instead of worrying about getting paint to stick to fingers for a week
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Same for me because I’m lazy - paint and thinner, the end, lol .
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I like ghsp thinning medium for certain details… I need to find a good replacement for that.
liquithin is not it.
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I just finished a doll and used liquithin for the first few wash layers. He is going out as a boo boo because that turned out to be a disaster. Never again.
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Thankfully, since mine was only used for one layer in the creases I was able to scrap out the area not working right and repaint it. I also was told that putting a layer of Xodus matte varnish over problem spots had solved issues for another person. So I went over the creases that I fixed with that as well.
I agree with you though. NEVER again! I put my whole set up for sale and sold it last night. Let someone else who loves those paints enjoy but I hate them!
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