I think bountiful baby should add an area where people can post their pictures for a real critical review from everyone. I do often want that, and I find that it usually doesn’t happen to the extent that I’d prefer. I mean, I really would sometimes like it if there was a place where people could feel free to be brutally honest, and where one could ask for the same in return, with no hard feelings.
Not likely to produce any honesty. I would suggest that when posting a baby that in the title you post BRUTAL CRITIQUE PLEASE. REAL has a brutal critique thread and I don’t see it happening there either. I often PM suggestions rather than posting them on a thread.
(sigh) I guess everyone equates this type of honesty with being mean . . .
— Begin quote from “dothehokeypokey”
(sigh) I guess everyone equates this type of honesty with being mean . . .
— End quote
Or perhaps they just don’t want to help anyone get better?
— Begin quote from “dothehokeypokey”
(sigh) I guess everyone equates this type of honesty with being mean . . .
— End quote
I think so – and I think that some people, even when asking for a brutal critique, are not prepared for the hurt feelings it can cause if their work actually IS critiqued. I mean, we all work really hard, that’s a given. There’s a fine line between critique and being mean, though. I tend to try & err more on the side of caution for fear of hurting someone.
I think a lot has to do with how the critique is done. I’ve heard a few unkind comments, but never directed at anyone here. However, if someone uses that type of critique, I guess feelings will be hurt. I have read some of Pia’s suggestions, {note, I said suggestions} that were kind and the type of honest critique that I would not mind having. I have to give much credit to Pia for being able to gently suggest what needs to be changed and not being afraid to say it. It would be nice if each beginner had a mentor. I would choose Pia.
I agree about Pia. I have combed through a lot of old postings trying to learn all I could before ordering my first kit and Pia always had a way of saying what needed to be said without seeming offensive. I also like the idea of sending a pm too. That way the OP isn’t embarrassed about what is really wrong with their baby. Honestly I am the kind of person that actually would rather have brutally honest opinions, I don’t take offense and I know that i can improve and learn from others experience.
Well, when I suggested ‘brutal’ honesty, I wasn’t meaning that people should tear each other apart, as in: wow, that baby just sucks. I hope you didn’t quit your day job! I more meant that if you want real and honest criticism and/or suggestions on how to improve, it would be nice if there was a place where you could ask for it. If you didn’t want to post there, you wouldn’t have to - I mean, if you’re massively sensitive or fragile, it probably wouldn’t be a good idea! But if you know that there’s something wrong with your baby, or something missing, and you can’t quite put your finger on it, it would be nice if there was a place where you could give people permission to say: gee, that baby is really pale, you should do a warming wash; or, gosh that baby is kinda cross eyed. Did you mean for it to be that way? Just a thought I had. In a perfect world . . .
— Begin quote from “otterbaby2”
I think a lot has to do with how the critique is done. I’ve heard a few unkind comments, but never directed at anyone here. However, if someone uses that type of critique, I guess feelings will be hurt. I have read some of Pia’s suggestions, {note, I said suggestions} that were kind and the type of honest critique that I would not mind having. I have to give much credit to Pia for being able to gently suggest what needs to be changed and not being afraid to say it. It would be nice if each beginner had a mentor. I would choose Pia.
— End quote
That is very sweet. I am definitely not a “mentor” caliber of reborn artist though. I can only suggest some of the things (and tutorials) that have been helpful for me. I hate though when someone asks for a suggestion for improving and then when a suggestion is made - the artist has an excuse for why she did it the way she did and doesn’t really want help anyway. Or perhaps there is “something wrong with the camera”? or “I really wanted my baby to look like it is bruised and beat up”. Sorry - I didn’t mean that to be like a rant at all and I love helping when someone is showing a baby. The spot on BB for a post asking for help would be under the “Work In Progress” thread. That spot would let everyone know that it is still WIP and suggestions could be applied to the current baby. In the “Reborn Showcase” thread, the suggestions would have to be something like “Lovely baby and I can tell you spent a lot of time painting her. On your next baby, you might want to try adding 3-4 drops of linseed oil to your Flesh colors to minimize the chalkiness”. (There - was that too tough?)
— Begin quote from “pia”
— Begin quote from “otterbaby2”
I think a lot has to do with how the critique is done. I’ve heard a few unkind comments, but never directed at anyone here. However, if someone uses that type of critique, I guess feelings will be hurt. I have read some of Pia’s suggestions, {note, I said suggestions} that were kind and the type of honest critique that I would not mind having. I have to give much credit to Pia for being able to gently suggest what needs to be changed and not being afraid to say it. It would be nice if each beginner had a mentor. I would choose Pia.
— End quote
That is very sweet. I am definitely not a “mentor” caliber of reborn artist though. I can only suggest some of the things (and tutorials) that have been helpful for me. I hate though when someone asks for a suggestion for improving and then when a suggestion is made - the artist has an excuse for why she did it the way she did and doesn’t really want help anyway. Or perhaps there is “something wrong with the camera”? or “I really wanted my baby to look like it is bruised and beat up”. Sorry - I didn’t mean that to be like a rant at all and I love helping when someone is showing a baby. The spot on BB for a post asking for help would be under the “Work In Progress” thread. That spot would let everyone know that it is still WIP and suggestions could be applied to the current baby. In the “Reborn Showcase” thread, the suggestions would have to be something like “Lovely baby and I can tell you spent a lot of time painting her. On your next baby, you might want to try adding 3-4 drops of linseed oil to your Flesh colors to minimize the chalkiness”. (There - was that too tough?)
— End quote
But I like it when people are tough! I like it when someone says “That baby looks totally flat. It needs more shading”. And then I can say: “Thanks, you’re right. Now I’ve made a better baby”. I guess I’ve just dreamed an impossible dream !
— Begin quote from “adh”
Look at my signature baby. If I say I have been learning to reborn for a year and have never sold a baby, am not trying to sell this baby and everything about her can be changed (I don’t know how to root so I can still strip her), think about the suggestions you could make. That is the truth, but now imagine it isn’t, and I’ve said I think she’s amazing, she’s on ebay right now and I am desperate to sell her because I need money and I believe she’s worth at least three hundred dollars. That would make it much harder for anyone to tell me the truth. I don’t think anyone would want to be dishonest but expressing a true opinion can get tricky.
— End quote
Well, that’s why I was proposing a place where you can go if you want criticism and suggestions. Obviously, nobody wants to hurt anyone’s feelings by just offering up an unasked-for opinion. But sometimes I do want some input, and it seems like we’re all so nice that we’re afraid to really give any. As I said before, no one would be required to post pictures and ask for opinions or help. But if you wanted that, wouldn’t it be nice if it was an option? To have a place where you could go and be as honest with yourself as you would expect the responders to be with you?
— Begin quote from “dothehokeypokey”
— Begin quote from “adh”
Look at my signature baby. If I say I have been learning to reborn for a year and have never sold a baby, am not trying to sell this baby and everything about her can be changed (I don’t know how to root so I can still strip her), think about the suggestions you could make. That is the truth, but now imagine it isn’t, and I’ve said I think she’s amazing, she’s on ebay right now and I am desperate to sell her because I need money and I believe she’s worth at least three hundred dollars. That would make it much harder for anyone to tell me the truth. I don’t think anyone would want to be dishonest but expressing a true opinion can get tricky.
— End quote
Well, that’s why I was proposing a place where you can go if you want criticism and suggestions. Obviously, nobody wants to hurt anyone’s feelings by just offering up an unasked-for opinion. But sometimes I do want some input, and it seems like we’re all so nice that we’re afraid to really give any. As I said before, no one would be required to post pictures and ask for opinions or help. But if you wanted that, wouldn’t it be nice if it was an option? To have a place where you could go and be as honest with yourself as you would expect the responders to be with you?
— End quote
That is a nice thought.
I was just thanking you for your honesty Pia. It is a rare and refreshing quality. The mentor part was just hypothetical. Everyone in this forum has been very helpful to us neophytes in our neediness.
— Begin quote from “otterbaby2”
I was just thanking you for your honesty Pia. It is a rare and refreshing quality. The mentor part was just hypothetical. Everyone in this forum has been very helpful to us neophytes in our neediness.
— End quote
You are sweet. I am happy to help,whenever I can!
— Begin quote from “pia”
— Begin quote from “otterbaby2”
I was just thanking you for your honesty Pia. It is a rare and refreshing quality. The mentor part was just hypothetical. Everyone in this forum has been very helpful to us neophytes in our neediness.
— End quote
You are sweet. I am happy to help,whenever I can!
— End quote
Thank goodness, because the next time I want a critique, you’ll probably be getting a PM from me (I’m not joking).
The thing is, if you put your work in public domain you give people the right to express their opinion about it; do we really want everybody just say “oh, lovely” even if it is not? Maybe people who do not wish to get critical comment should say: “if you do not like my baby, I do not want to know; I only want people to say nice things about it”.
The problem is that something that can be said in friendly way to somebody’s face is much more difficult to convey in writing here without being interpreted whichever way people want. Personally, I do not really care if criticism meant to be constructive or whatever; it is good to consider what things look like from another person’s perspective. People are coming here saying " I cannot sell my baby" and when somebody points out to them, as gently as possible, how they could improve either their baby or presentation, some get their hackles up.
The fact is there are tens of thousands reborn dolls offered for sale, so competition for buyers is fierce. After almost 5 years and some 100 dolls, I think i do quite an acceptable job. I have recently accepted an offer of $150 for baby that was listed since early November! I did sell several others over this time, and for much more, but this one did not even have watchers. I thought she was lovely; I did several times take her out of her box thinking maybe I am just kidding myself, but every time I came to the conclusion that she is better than I remember her, I was also very happy with the photos - some times when baby does not have many lookers, I re-do the photos. So, I have to admit that I get rather irritated when people who are very new to reborning (and it shows) complain that their babies are not selling, and then get insulted when it is pointed out why that might be.
I sometimes wonder why I bother; I should be happy that many of the people I am competing against list their dolls with photos so bad that you can hardly see what kit it is, never mind any details, when their rooting is worse than the 1st doll I rooted, and they so over price their dolls that I can undercut them with my much better baby.
There she is, Miss America . . . phew, I was starting to think you’d been lost at sea! Well, it kinda seems like the concensus is that most people don’t want a critique section. There is an insidious spirit of niceness that worms it’s way through the hearts of reborners like some happy rainbow curse (possibly with unicorns frolicking across sun dappled fields of love). Now I personally don’t think it’s mean to give someone a critique if they ask for it. But I’ve come to the conclusion that most people just don’t want to run the risk of hurting anyone’s feelings. I personally will just post my works in progress from now on with the caveat that one has to be honest if one wants to comment. Voila, I’ve created my own critique section of one post LOL.
Edited because I wrote ‘concession’ insisted of ‘concensus’. Must have been a Freudian slip . . .
Guess those of us willing to be honest need to be aware of who we critique? And Melanie - you do not have to be an “expert” at reborning to comment on how a baby looks to you. That is valuable information. If a baby looks “dead”, that is something that is valuable information. If the photo distorts a feature, that is useful information. What I find interesting is that an auction link can be posted and the forum members are willing to offer honest comments because it is assumed that the artist will never see the comments - but if the artist posted the baby themselves, the comments would be so totally different. Nature of the beast!
It’s all so strange to me. I really thought everybody would welcome and value peer evaluation. I also thought that most people would be willing to give as good as they got. Just . . . surprising all around.
— Begin quote from “dothehokeypokey”
It’s all so strange to me. I really thought everybody would welcome and value peer evaluation. (
— End quote
I thought that since there is already WIP section, and other section for showing finished babies, there is already opportunity to ask for critique. I must be really dumb but what other reason for posting pics there is than wanting to know what people think?
In any case, people do not stick to the theme of the various forums as it is.